My question is: why would Agamemnon bother to instruct Odysseus to not trust his wife when he believes Penelope to be a loyal wife anyway?
What really interested me about this, however, is that Odysseus does not seem to pay much mind to this warning at all. Once Penelope’s suspicions are finally squandered, she and her husband talk into the night about what they have experienced in their near two decades apart, and, in telling his side of the story, Odysseus “spare[s] her nothing” (322). Furthermore, at mention of the further journeys Odysseus must make, as foretold by Tirésias, Penelope demands full knowledge of what they entail. Although he had initially planned to tell her at a later time, upon Penelope’s request, Odysseus “tell[s] [Penelope] all he know[s] without disguise” (321). Penelope appears to be Odysseus’s true confidante and even his equal. This is illustrated also in their first meeting upon his return, where Penelope dares to test her husband and to deny him his warm welcome in favor of waiting to see if her suspicions will be confirmed. She is cautious, deliberate, and wise, which is likely what causes him to value her opinion. It begs the question of whether Agamemnon and Clytemnestra ever had this kind of trust and balance, or if there were conflicts in their marriage for far longer than Agamemnon led on.
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| Clear marital concerns: the murder of Agamemnon by Clytemnestra, courtesy of The Black Tail. |
The contrast between Agamemnon and Clytemnestra and Odysseus and Penelope is certainly an interesting part of their stories. When I had first learned that Agamemnon was going to be killed by his wife, of course I just assumed that she was evil or something, but this was also before we were given the full story. After we got all the details, I’m now on her side, obviously, as should most if not all people be, considering he murdered their daughter.
ReplyDeleteAgamemnon, on the other hand, must not have been too bright, because to me it really just seemed that he still to this day has no real clue why she killed him. At least he sure acts like it, anyway, especially in the blame that he places on women as a whole for being responsible for what happened to him. This leads me to answer your question about why he instructed Odysseus not to trust Penelope regardless of how loyal she is. I think it’s because Agamemnon is really just that clueless. He totally brushes the murder under the rug, talks as though his wife turned on him for no good reason, and is probably saying that even though Penelope is great so far, he still should keep on eye on things just in case he ever needs to sacrifice Telemachus someday for example, then she could probably suddenly conspire against him, in which case Agamemnon can again say he was right all along and told him so. This is pretty far fetched of course, and Odysseus probably realizes this, so he doesn’t really pay any mind.
As for whether Agamemnon and his wife ever had a good relationship like Odysseus and Penelope, I would guess that they probably did, but again, personally if I had a husband and he scarified our daughter to the gods, let’s just say I’d see him differently after that too.
Is revenge ever truly justified? Was it really valid to match bloodshed with further bloodshed, especially considering Cassandra was roped into Clytemnestra's wrath? It's definitely an interesting set of circumstances because you can feel and empathize with Clytemnestra's pain from losing her daughter, but murder is an extreme act of retaliation, though maybe not for this cultural context (given the gruesomeness of the murders in these texts and the way they are at times celebrated).
DeleteI honestly think it's toxic male pride causing Agamemnon to (at least outwardly) fail to understand the reasoning for his death. He may even understand it on some level but pretend not to in order to make himself look better and further criminalize his wife.
Perhaps it takes a sacrifice of child to break marital bonds in this time period. Seems legit.
Personally, I believe the reason why Agamemnon warned Odysseus against trusting his wife, even though he contradicted himself and said he didn't expect her to kill Odysseus, was because of his own bitterness. In the time we have had since completing the Odyssey, we have read The Oresteia and now fully understand the back story behind his death (and consequential bitterness). That being said, I think the reason he warned against Penelope was because of his own personal bitterness. Think of it this way. If both you and your friend purchased a phone, but only yours died soon after, you would probably talk mad shit on your friends phone even though it still works beautifully. At this point, your experiences have created a personal bias that you likely know does not apply to all cases. If you behaved in such a way, it would be because of your own personal bitterness towards the phone(and possibly any other phone made by the same company). Likewise, Agamemnon is bitter towards all women even though deep down inside he knows that not all women are like with ex wife.
ReplyDeleteBitterness is definitely a force to be reckoned with!! Agamemnon is clearly bitter, just from the way he talks about his wife. I think such a negative attitude tends to infuse your entire thought process and mess a bit with your reasoning and logic, so that could explain his inconsistencies.
DeleteThis is an interesting point to bring up. After reading Agamemnon's story, it is evident to us why Agamemnon needed to give Odysseus this warning. As some of you also commented, this warning was contradicting because he also validated that she would not kill him. I guess he just wanted him to know that Penelope was going to be skeptical of Odysseus and that is what he meant. Although that is a possible theory, I also thought that Agamemnon was envious of Odysseus. He probably saw Penelope and how loyal she was and hated that his wife did not do the same for him. He might have been trying to stir suspicion between them and make them fall apart for no reason. If Agamemnon can't get what he wants then no one should I guess. If you can't tell from my comment, I'm not a huge Agamemnon fan. This was a great discussion topic though!
ReplyDeleteI didn't even think about the jealousy angle! I wish we could have seen more of Agamemnon to see if he had a manipulative side to him. I wouldn't be surprised because a lot of the characters in these texts are pretty cut-throat and motivated by self-interest. So, it is quite possible that he could have had some sort of ulterior motive in this. Then again, he's dead, so why would he want to meddle? Though even by this argument, the dead do sometimes intervene, such as when Aeneas's wife's shade comes back to tell him to stop looking for her.
DeleteI believe that Agamemnon warned Odysseus about being cautious around Penelope (even though he believes she would never hurt Odysseus) is because honestly, I don't think Agamemnon has forgiving/gotten over his murder in the hands of his wife and wife's lover. In my words, I think Agamemnon was super salty and jealous that Odysseus and Penelope are literal soulmates to one another while his own wife, Clytemnestra, betrayed him in the worst possible way.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of soulmates, I really liked how you dug deeper into Odysseus' encounter with Agamemnon in Hades, alongside bringing in the dynamics of Odysseus' and Penelope's relationship. It is no doubt that Penelope and Odysseus were made for one another. Both have a wise mind and soul that balance each other out perfectly. No wonder why Agamemnon was salty and hateful about Clytemnestra; he's jealous of Odysseus' perfect relationship with Penelope. Agamemnon seems to hate on all women after the one he left loved him the most, murdered him.
It's definitely safe to say Agamemnon hasn't gotten over his wife's treachery! Maybe his comment to Odysseus about untrustworthy wives was just bitter sarcasm, and that's why he admits the warning doesn't actually apply to Penelope. It would be interesting to know what a typical marriage was like at this time. I wonder if the closeness and compatibility that Odysseus and Penelope shared was commonplace, or if marriages were moreso arrangements of convenience or business, as it still is even in some cultures today. We certainly see other examples of love, including Achilles's apparent affection for his stolen war bride. However, was this same kind of love transferred into marital arrangements? Love is a natural human emotion, so it must have existed in this culture, but perhaps Agamemnon could have found this in women outside of his marriage (Cassandra maybe?). Therefore, what different kind of loyalty would be expected from a wife?
DeleteI stand to agree, that Agamemmon and his wife never had the strong connection that Odysseus and Penelope did. I think that Odysseus never really withheld information from Penelope because she would find out eventually or be cunning enough to know that he wasn't telling the whole truth. I believe Agamemmon warned Odysseus, not for a true warning, but rather because Agamemmon was still a little upset about his wife and needed to tell someone. The sorta thing he needed to get off his chest and rant about, even if he was dead.
ReplyDeleteI didn't think of that angle -- that Odysseus feels compelled to tell his wife the truth because she's smart enough to figure it out anyway. That definitely makes sense though because she's incredibly wise and perceptive, and she seems like the kind of woman you don't want to mess with!
DeletePerhaps one of the reasons Agamemnon is so adamant about Odysseus not trusting Penelope is because he is bitter - even embarrassed - about the way in which he died. We know that he knows Penelope is not at all like Clytemnestra because he directly says, "you'll never meet death at the hands of your Penelope, a prudent wife, whose heart has understanding" (257). Agamemnon seems to be upset that his death "was mean and small" (256). Odysseus has asked him to tell the tale of how he died, and he seems to be upset that it wasn't more epic. He almost wishes that it were because of "lord Poseidon" or "fighting-men." It sounds like he is embarrassed to die by his wife. She is preparing to have him killed when he is expecting a welcoming return. He doesn't see it coming and can't do anything to stop it when it does. Clytemnestra's vengeance is too much to be commended, but she does succeed in defeating and outwitting Agamemnon, which, especially in this period, is not a nice way to die.
ReplyDeleteRemember how Hektor was trying to decide whether or not to run away from Achilles? He wants to fight because of honor. He even tells his wife that he will continue to fight, knowing that he won't win, because it is more honorable of a death. These guys care about how they finish their lives. Agamemnon's was not ideal, so perhaps this is one of his sources of bitterness.
Very perceptive comment, Alice.
DeleteI think this is a very interesting point that you bring up. For me I simply did not look that much into this detail as you did. Although when I was reading it, I did think it was also kind of strange that Agamemnon felt the need to warn Odysseus. I think this was a great thing to discuss on the blog, because I am sure a lot of people had questions about that too!
ReplyDeleteThe main reason Agamemnon says that women should not be trusted is, simply put, because he is looking out for Odysseus. I personally do not think there is too much depth behind this thought, though others would disagree. Some may see his comments as being misogynistic or unjustified, but he is only trying to protect Odysseus at all costs, even if that means not trusting women anymore. Of course jealousy and paranoia are key players as well, but I think they come more as an afterthought.
ReplyDeleteThis was a great read! I believe another part of Agamemnon's caution that you did not mention was the fact that women weren't seen as equals back in this time. Maybe instead of just fearing she would harm Odysseus or betray him, he also felt that she doesn't deserve to know, and that her input wouldn't matter anyway.
ReplyDeleteYou really touched off a good discussion, Kate. People really had a lot of insightful things to say on this. Taken all together, pretty much everything I might have wanted to add got expressed. Here's to crowd-sourcing literary analysis!
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