The Iliad begins with an up close and personal view of the beginning of the rift between Achilles and Agamemnon: A rift that moved gods and men and turned the tide of the war. We're getting to see the Trojan war, yes, but we're viewing it through the context of Achilles' actions and the effect he had on it.
Next, the Odyssey. As we follow Telemachus and Odysseus around the Mediterranean, we learn through their eyes and ears more about this world and the characters in it. In Agamemnon's part of the Oresteia, we find more clues. The tape rewinds, and we expound upon a part of the narrative that had been glossed over in the last story.
Hundreds of years later, Virgil dusts off the old epic and gets out paper and pen. This time we rewind almost back to the beginning and we see the aftermath of Troy from the perspective of Aeneas and the Trojans.
When else in history has this phenomenon occurred? What other examples do we have of different authors and different mediums joining together through time and space to create a single narrative that has imprinted itself into our culture? I think it’s special how The Iliad, The Odyssey, The Oresteia, and The Aeneid form
I really like when we discussed fan fiction in class. Your discussion topic reminds me of that conversation. I personally enjoy fan fiction and throughout the years, I have been moved to create my own ideas for what ending I would have wanted for someone or for a piece all together. Between Odyssey, The Aeneid, and The Oresteia we get a full and almost satisfying explanation for the what if's we had finishing The Iliad. I value all of the stories because of this.
ReplyDeleteParadise Lost by John Milton comes to mind when you ask if this type of thing has been done with other famous works. Paradise Lost is based on the story of Adam and Eve in the Bible. We see a different side of the story and Milton creates a great narrative. I highly recommend it.
Interesting! Paradise Lost almost reminds me of the premise of Good Omens by Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman.
DeleteAs an avid reader and writer of fanfiction, I was truly delighted when Professor Luthin made that comparison right out of the gate. If you think about it, a lot of the classical literature and art revered by our society is just... Bible fanfic and fanart. The Odyssey and the Aeneid read like fanboys writing endings for their favorite characters, and the Oresteia like spitefic about everyone's most hated character.
Your blog post reminds me of Disney movies and the fact that we keep trying to reinvent what has already been sung and find a new way to market it. I think that retellings are important especially when, in this case, we are learning about the "other" side and the "other" political view. Sometimes I find myself getting very confused trying to keep everything straight and I think that is one major draw back when encountering these retellings. I wonder if there is a way to retell another side of the same story but not be so confusing? I'm very nervous to take an exam on all of this for the simple fact that, I seem to get everything confused. Any tips?
ReplyDeleteOoh, that's a really good comparison! I also think of movies like Maleficent, which tells the story of a villian of a popular fairy tale.
DeleteTaking exams about this kind of stuff can be daunting. My advice (which you should totally take with a grain of salt, but you asked for it) is to begin the reading with an idea of the events already in your head. Watch a summary on youtube or sparknotes it before you get into reading the actual book. When you already have a framework for what happens, your brain can store the information more easily.
Also, when you finish a chapter, write your own summary! Most importantly, summarize it how you would tell a story. Mock the main characters, make memes, be humorous, be irreverent, however you'd like to do it. Write it or tell it how you would tell a story, now how some dusty old dude who lived hundreds of years would tell it.
You can also make webs or family trees or flash cards to physically visualize each character's relationship to others.
I hope this helps! Does anyone else have tips or ideas? Feel free to chime in if you have something to contribute.
Something interesting that your post makes me think about is: how do we decide what versions, editions, adaptations, etc of a story are “real?” If we say Homer for example was the person to say what events took place in this ancient world, what the characters did, and where things ended, can just anyone add into it and make an equally as valid or “true” story? If both originals and adaptations/fanfictions are made up, then what parts of each can really be said or agreed upon as the part of the story that “actually” happened? Perhaps it’s determined by cultural relevance, or just varies by individual. Obviously the fact that the Aeneid is a famous work contributes to the fact that many people probably accept it as a ‘real’ story, however, if you or I decided to write our own version, it would probably be disregarded by most people, although they are both fiction. I think it’s really interesting to think about how whether we agree if something truly took place within a story depends largely on whether or not it’s able to break into pop culture.
ReplyDeleteOh I like this comment a lot. That's such a good question. If I were to write my own part of the TCU (trojan cinematic universe) would it be "canon"? Who says Virgil, Homer,and Aeschylus get to have all the fun? It might be canon to me, but to someone else my work wouldn't count at all. It leads to a broader conversation about the subjectivity of art and the elitism of academia.
DeleteIt reminds me a bit of some comic books, and how stories or details about characters that were canon in the originals got changed or adapted as new content was produced. It's interesting to think about, and throwing me for a bit of a trip. Existential crisis time! *jazz hands*
Yes, this is exactly what I was trying to say! :) I didn’t even think to mention comic books vs movie adaptions as another perfect example.
DeleteI'm not entirely familiar with any stories that display this phenomenon. However, I do notice this trend in films/video games. One of the best examples of this comes from the films "Gettysburg" and "Gods and Generals". The former focuses on the perspective of the Union and their moral obligation to what they believe to be right. The latter tells the story from the view point of the south and reveals the social issues and personal convictions of the men/generals who fought for the south. I also see this video games; specifically WWII video games. For the longest time, the narrative has focused on the American portion of the war. Seemingly every campaign starts with the landing at Normandy and progresses from there. However, recently there has been an influx of games that attempt to tell the other sides of the story, such as the French resistance and the British side of the war. As I typed this, I also realized that Disney is doing exactly what you mentioned with the Star Wars franchise. Films like Rogue One and Hon Solo are comparable to the Aeneid in the sense that they all tell the same story, but from a different characters perspective.
ReplyDeleteI too cannot think of an example of this occurring in other literature but I also see this trend. Especially in movies. I was watching a video on the evolution of the story of Batman, and I was amazed to see many times the story of the same character had been told; and in so many different ways. Somtimes from Batman's perspective, sometimes Robin's or the Joker's. There are also many different character backgrounds and characteristics. It seems to be a competition of which author or director can mold the story into the piece the audience finds the most intriguing.
DeleteHonestly, I love how we discussed The Aeneid as basically one of the first fanfictions to come out in literature ever. It actually IS nothing but Homeric fanfiction but it takes place on the Trojan side of the war instead of the Greeks. I loved how the roles on who's good and evil are reversed in each story (e.g. Greeks are the good guys in The Iliad and The Odyssey). In a way, fanfiction is much like re-tellings.
ReplyDeleteWhen I think of retellings/fanfictions in other media, I always think of the art during the Italian Renaissance (e.g. Da Vinci's "Last Supper") as Bible fanfiction. Through the painting, it illustrates the story of Jesus Christ and the Last Supper (obvious, I know). A lot of art and literature during the Renaissance period was always focused on Christianity, hence the reason why a lot of them portray many biblical characters and themes.
Right? So much of the classical art and literature we revere so much is just... Bible fanboys creating. That's it. It's interesting that even though "higher" art is Christian fanfic, fanfic is generally looked down upon, or regarded as a lesser, immature art form.
DeleteYou are surely correct, on these works being a master piece. With these different authors, coming from somewhat different times, we see their stories coming together forging a greater, larger tale of men and gods. It is truly amazing that all of these stories all come together with such accuracy and consistency. Like when a huge puzzle comes together, with every little piece having its' own story.
ReplyDeleteExactly! A really, really big jigsaw hundreds of years in the making.
DeleteI think one of the most interesting things about The Iliad is that it doesn't take a "side." The protagonists and heroes (from both sides) come in, mess up, and eventually die. As a reader, I rarely felt invested in either the Greeks or the Trojans because they both had support (and scorn) at different times throughout the story. All that to say, The Iliad doesn't support just one side, so it isn't reading against the grain when someone writes a retelling that investigates another set of characters. It seems almost natural to hear backstories in the "fan fiction" retellings because there isn't a strong bias in the originals.
ReplyDeleteFor example, Aeneus gives us the Trojan perspective. The Trojan's lost, but it doesn't feel like we are hearing a "villain's" side of the story. Normally when reading a story and its retelling (e.g. Maleficent), I find my perspective and opinion about the hero or the villain changes. Retellings often help us see the "other side" and gain a different perspective that helps us better understand the characters. However, The Iliad seems to be different because there isn't a clear "good" side. Maybe these collections, which, like you said, make up a larger unified story, are unique.
I'm not sure that these thoughts are important to the works that we read. Perhaps there is not a distinction between these three and other retellings. However, my first reaction was to see the characters and sides as equal, which struck me as different.
I really like this post. I started thinking about this when we started reading The Aeneid, especially when we had our discussion about fan fiction. While this is a common practice in today's literary world, I deduce that this was practically non-existent when these stories were written. I find this to be very interesting and it shows how the ancient Greeks, Trojans and Romans would all believe in pretty much the same thing with only small deviations.
ReplyDeleteTroy Story 2! 😂
ReplyDeleteI never fully thought about this idea until I really read your post. I think it is very unique the way all these stories in a way come together and make a bigger story in a way. I think the most unique part of this story in my opinion is when Virgil comes out and writes the story from the perspective of the people of Troy. I think this is a good blog post, and would make a great discussion.
ReplyDeleteFirst off, I love the title. Second, I love the question that you asked. The first thing that immediately pops into my mind when fusing old narratives with current-day culture is Shakespeare. Though there are hundreds of examples out there, the one I will use here is Romeo and Juliet and its linkage with musicals; more specifically, West Side Story. Though Romeo and Juliet has been retold over and over again, along with having its fair share of film adaptations, none have ever felt quite as fresh as West Side Story. It was the classic Shakespeare tale retold through song and 1950's culture. Though it was a story everyone had heard before, it was a spectacle unlike anyone had ever seen, and now, even the film is a classic! It is currently getting a $100 million 2020 reboot from director Steven Spielberg, and will be retold once again.
ReplyDeleteFascinating conversation. Highly productive post, Virginia!
ReplyDeleteTurns out (who could doubt it?) there is a Wikipedia page on this topic:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Works_based_on_the_Odyssey
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Films_based_on_the_Odyssey
I didn't check other works...