Trust is represented in many different lights throughout The Odyssey, The Illiad, and The Oresteia. The Odyssey offers two situations where trust plays an important role. The first being when King Agamemnon tells Odysseus not to trust his wife upon his return home. This then leads to Odysseus not immediately telling Penelope of his return as well as the tense situation when they finally do come face to face. The second occurs when Odysseus and his men spend time at Circe's abode. Although Odysseus made Circe take an oath that she would not harm him or his men, it still took a certain level of trust to remain there for such a long period of time. In the Illiad, The seer trusts that Apollo will avenge the great injustice pushed upon him by King Agamemnon and Achilles trusts his friend Patroclus to take his armor/sword into battle (something that was not taken lightly in that time period). In a sense, Achilles trusted Patroclus to represent him on the battlefield. Lastly, The Oresteia shows us how trust can be betrayed. Although you could argue that Clytemnestra's motives were justified, King Agamemnon still trusts her completely; until she wraps him up in a sheet and stabs him to death.
So, my question to you is this. Do you think that the writers put these situations of trust in the story to teach a lesson ( almost like Aesop's Fables) or do you think they were put there simply to create plot points?
I honestly think trust or lack thereof is simply an irrevocable component of the human experience. I don't think it was necessarily deliberate. These are very human tales, some moreso than others, so in their analysis and insight of human nature, it is natural for these kinds of dynamics to occur. I also think the specific circumstances of these texts lend themselves to themes of trust. The gods are in control of seemingly everything that goes on in this literary world, guiding (forcing?) the characters to their rightful destinies. They are also held in great reverence. Therefore, the characters make sacrifices to the gods asking for their assistance and wisdom; this takes a certain level of trust, in accepting and honoring the gods' responses. Furthermore, in a war setting, one must rely on his comrades in order to tackle their common enemy. It's almost like the team mentality of sports: teammates rely on each other in order to work towards a common goal, and it is often said that the failures of one teammate are the failures of the whole team. In kind of the same way, a military force must trust each other and reconcile any of their personal differences on the battlefield because if they are divided, that makes them further vulnerable to the enemy.
ReplyDeleteWhen I read your point about Circe, I was thinking that there was another instance of granting trust in that situation. This instance may show that the way trust is integrated into these myths may at times be magnified for dramatic effect. On his way to release his men from their pigly state, Odysseus is approached by Hermes, disguised as a "youth just come of age" (239). The veiled Hermes tells Odysseus that he will fall victim to the same fate as his men, unless he follows his instructions. He gives Odysseus an herb to counteract the harmful effects of a potion he claims Circe will give him and instructs Odysseus to lay with Circe in order to free his men and prevent further attack from her (239). Truthfully, it takes a great amount of trust for Odysseus to trust these warnings and these instructions, given to him by, to his knowledge, a complete stranger. Odysseus must trust that the "youth's" remedies and plans will really save him from Circe's great powers and a dismal fate. Perhaps this level of trust is the hyperbolic fancy of a fairy tale, a dramatization of the natural human impulse to trust.
Very nice points, Kate. As capricious as the gods are, humans do seem to trust them implicitly.
DeleteFirstly, I love this comment. You shed light on some aspects of the story (specifically Hermes disguising himself as a young man) that I had completely overlooked. I personally agree with your assessment. I don't believe that the writers purposefully "wrote in" these situations to teach a life lesson. I feel this way simply because life was, in a sense, already teaching everyone these lessons. There is no need to make a story a moral lecture when life already teaches you those lessons daily. That being said, I feel these situations added to the sense of realism that these stories hold. To us we see them as fictional tails, but to the ancient Greeks, it was history.
ReplyDeleteThere have been many moments while reading all of these epics/stories that I have asked myself the same question. Sometimes it is hard to determine what is meant to simply be plot development/resolution versus what is intended to teach us something. And on top of that, the fact that these tales certainly must have had a much different level of significance to the Greeks of the time compared to what they mean to us now as readers so many centuries later—like you said about our perspective seeing them as fictional tales, but to the Greeks it was history.
ReplyDeleteI think it’s also really easy to want to see everything as a fable with a moral because there are so many popular Greek myths that people use and recognize as moral lessons still to this day, and a lot of them probably would make no real distinction between those and Aesop’s stories. I also agree with Kate that trust is an intrinsic part of human nature, and at some point or another is a core theme that is woven into just about every story that’s been told involving humanity since the dawn of time.
If you really stop to think about it, almost every story written is a fable to a certain extent. Any meaningful story teaches us valuable moral lessons that we should then apply to our own lives. Personally, I don't believe the writers of these epics put these situations in the story to teach us a lesson. I feel they simply saw real life, and tried to mimic it as much as possible. Thank you for responding to my post and offering your personal insight!
DeleteI think that trust, back in the ancient times, played a much greater role then compared to today. Back then someone's "word" or basically trust was that of much value, so much that certain stories could be dedicated to just gaining someone's trust, in certain perspectives. My take is that the authors put these situations of trust, into these epics because they were valued so highly back then. Also to teach lessons of never to fully trust someone, even your own wife, but also sometimes you have to fully trust somebody in order to survive.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree. In less modern times, a mans wroth was not only determined by his physical possessions, but also his character. Trust definitely falls under the category of personal character, and could even be argued to be one of the most important aspects of it. I feel the reason for this was the nature of the times. We live in an age where we can communicate immediately with one another however, they did not. There was no way to know if a person would betray you or turn their back on you until long after the deed had been done; causing trust to become a paramount virtue in any friendship. Thank you for choosing my comment! It means a lot! =)
DeleteGreat ideas Pierre! I obviously acknowledged the theme of loyalty and trust, but it never became so evident to me until I read your blog. There were endless examples through all of the stories we have read about trust. I think that trust is a common theme for stories. Partly because I believe trust is so important to human kind and we value that more than many other things in life, but also because it does bring drama along with it. Look at all of the drama and action unfolded when Agamemnon was blindsided by his wife and learned that he couldn't trust her. On the opposite side of the spectrum, look at Odysseus and Penelope. The had so much trust in each other that the readers fell in love with the chemistry and loyalty between them. The topic of trust on its own draws readers in because trust is so important to us as well. To answer the question that you bring up at the end of you post, I think that the topic of trust was purposely included in these stories for many reasons. The authors wanted to intrigue the readers, they wanted the readers to relate to the characters, and yes, maybe to teach some sort of lesson about loyalty as well.
ReplyDeleteWell said! I'm sure that deep down inside we all long for someone or something to put our trust in. I would even go as far to say that we need someone/something to put our trust in. When I think about it, I believe that this is the reason we connect so strongly with the concept of trust. As I said in previous responses, I feel the writers of these stories used real life concepts to make their stories more believable, and not necessarily to teach a moral lesson; although it might have done just that for many readers. Thanks for responding to my post! =)
DeleteYes, I really think we were created to long to trust in the God who made us.
DeleteAgamemnon had to have been pretty--what: unimaginative? utterly lacking in empathy?--NOT to have foreseen that his wife might harbor some dark emotions resulting from his act of daughter-slaughter. Really? He didn't see that coming?
DeleteI believe the factor of trust has allot to do with Greek society. A oath by the gods broken means far more to them than it does currently to us, as it plays a huge role in their lives. Especially in stories like the Odyssey where the gods have such a huge part to play.
ReplyDeleteI'm so thankful that you used the word "oath". How many times has a friend/family member made a promise that they failed to keep? The answer at minimum can be no other than a few times. However, back in the day, people lost their lives over broken promises. I can't help but think of the scene in Braveheart when William Wallace exacts vengeance on the lords who abandoned him on the field of battle. While I am very thankful that lives can no longer be lost over a broken promise, I do wish that we viewed our promises in a more serious light.
DeleteYou pose a good question here. The authors behind these stories were geniuses, plain and simple. These are complex works that must have taken a lot of time to craft, and I personally think that because of that, all of the themes involved were purposefully placed in these stories. I do not know if I would go so far as to say that "trust" is the main lesson to be learned; however, it is definitely one of them. I would argue that both possibilities you give could have influenced their decisions. Maybe the themes were calculated WITH the major plot-lines?
ReplyDeleteI agree with you! The complexity and knowledge that went into each of these stories is enough to fill a small library. Just look at the Orestia. In order for that story to even make sense, one must understand the long and elaborate history of King Agamemnon's family. These works were premeditated to say the very least. So, it is highly likely that some (if not all) instances of trust, and other forms of virtue, were planted in the stories by the writers.
DeleteFantastic ideas! It is worth noting that Aesop was Greek, there very well could be a connection between Aesop's Fables and these ancient Greek myths. I may be wrong on my dates here, but I believe the Odyssey was composed in the 8th century BC and Aesop appeared in either the 5th or 6th century BC. That being said, any connection between the two would have been made by Aesop, but I do believe that there could very well be some sort of collection. To answer your question, I think the situations were put into the stories to teach a lesson as opposed to being focused on plot points. In my opinion, I don't think the ancient Greek could have been too focused on plot points. I think they were more focused on creating teachable stories that would serve as reminders.
ReplyDeleteI like how you talk about the idea of trust. Trust can be a tricky thing, especially with people that you do not know all that well. For example when you talk about Odysseus having to trust Circe not to hurt him or his men. Right there takes more trust then I would ever have, he was literally putting his life and his men lives in the hands of someone that he did not know all too well. I think this post really makes you think about trust and how much trust there really is in stories that we may overlook.
ReplyDeleteI think that could very well depend upon the situation. For example, when Achilles gave Patroclus his armor, he was not rewarded for his trust. Patroclus bit off more than he could chew and died. Agamemnon certainly wasn't rewarded for his trust in Clytemnestra. Odysseus, however, didn't trust his household until he was completely sure the were loyal, and was rewarded for his wisdom in the matter.
ReplyDeleteFor my midterm paper, I saw a connection between the gory violence of war and a metaphoric connection to society as a whole. I feel as though these writers were, as Nate said, geniuses. I would not put it past them if they were trying to teach a lesson about the world as a whole and get across the point that trust is earned, not given, and that it can be lost in the blink of an eye. Another point that lit up in my mind as I was pondering this question was the fact that you needed to trust the men you went into battle with your life. They were the people who will have your six, or not, and if not, you found out the hard way that they abandoned you. I think that this definitely helped with the plot to all of these stories and epics, but I feel as though it was not done on a whim; it was a calculated addition that was made, so that these stories and epics could be so rich.
ReplyDelete(I don't know if they knew, or hoped that these pieces would be studied as they are now and dissected not only in the literary aspect such as plot, rising action, falling action, etc, but also due to the abundance of psychology and gender roles that are within them as well. As I said, we will never know for sure if these points are something that they were thinking of as they were creating these works, but the authors were definitely geniuses of their time as well as ours!)
Wow, you really kicked off a deep discussion here, Pierre! I think Kate and some others are right to suggest that trust doesn't have to be "inserted" deliberately into these stories for thematic or moralistic reasons, because trust is such an "irrevocable component of the human experience" that any writer/bard attempting to fully portray their characters lives and choices and actions--especially under the extreme circumstances of war, hardship, etc.--issues of trust can't help but be present in the mix.
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