Ruminations on This Week's Conversation

On the gods…

There were some interesting posts and comments about the role of the gods on the blog this week. One of the more interesting threads questioned how much credit for heroism was actually due to Odysseus and Achilles, given how much help they receive from their godly champions. (When you think of it, shouldn’t we rank Hector’s fame actually higher, given that he achieved his feats largely despite the ill-favor of key gods and goddesses?)

Maybe the way to look at it is through our own experience of bravery, luck, and heroism. When something profound or amazing happens, what do we say? You win the lottery: God was smiling on me today. A child survives a deadly illness: Her guardian angel never left her side. Someone survives a should-have-been fatal crash: Jesus took the wheel. Did they? Well, maybe. But did anyone actually see that? Or was it luck, resilience, quick reflexes? Maybe yes, maybe no. It is an ancient human response to extraordinary fortune or acts of prowess in defeat or victory to see an unseen hand in those events.

But here's the key point: Do we think any less of the bravery or strength or persistence of these hometown heroes and survivors because we suspect they had an angel on their team? I think it was no more different for the Greeks of Homer's time than it is for us in our modern time.


The question of Odysseus’ culpability in the loss of his men…

So many of you have voiced exasperation at Odysseus as a leader—maybe especially for his seeming utter inability to bypass any island or country his ships come across in their voyage home to Ithaca—that I thought it made sense to address this issue here. And you are not wrong about it! Odysseus’ behavior certainly comports with the personality traits for which he is famous: an abiding curiosity about the world, coupled with a deep-seated drive to know all that can be known and experience all that can be experienced. But: that’s not all there is to it.

Knowledge of the shores and islands and waters of the Mediterranean is  indispensable for the sailor. And the most reliable knowledge is that gained from personal observation and exploration. Let’s remember, too, that ships had to stop frequently on long journeys to take on fresh water and replenish food supplies. Most of the times when Odysseus and his men make landfall, it is because they are damaged, having been battered by some storm and in need maintenance, or hungry and in dire need of replenishing their stores. So it’s not all for the adventure of new lands and peoples, though it's that, too...



Cheating on Penelope?

Well yeah, but. Do not underestimate just how formidable a demigoddess can be, either in her powers of seduction or in her powers to completely mess you up long-term if you cross her. No less than male gods, they are dangerous, unpredictable beings, however beautiful. Odysseus’ bondage to Círcë and later Calýpso is not just sexual: his crew are essentially hostages, whose lives depend on how happy he makes his beguiling captors. Only more important and powerful gods, intervening at Athena's request, can finally break their spell and set him free.

I'm not saying it was exactly torture for poor Odysseus, but, in the end, as we see him weeping beside the seashore on Calýpso's fragrant, wafty isle, we realize the end he has reached: these goddesses are not his wife, and their islands are not his home...

Seedpost Reminders

I thought I would take this opportunity to reinforce a few of the conventions of this here blogging enterprise. But while I'm at it, let me seize the moment to share with you some of the more inventive attempts to visualize the Archery Contest from Book XXI...

Nice try, boys. But no...

Not even.

• Every post should be profusely illustrated adorned with at least one illustration—so yes, you will have to spend a little time beachcombing on the internets for interesting images pertinent to the topic of your post.

• The easiest way to do this is to save the image(s) to your desktop and upload them to the blog.

• Those of you "on" for this week: it's not too late to add images to your posts. (The INSERT IMAGE dialog gives you the option of left, right, or center alignment and small, medium or large size...)

Seriously‽

• Don't forget, part of your responsibility as a seedpost author is to moderate the discussion your post generates. 

Looks cool, anyway...

• I see most of you this week have found the Labels menu and tagged your posts accordingly. Thanks! (BTW, I have gotten rid of the "seedpost" label; it's actually pretty redundant, since all your posts have been seedposts so far...

As actually described in the actual Odyssey

Same, up on a table. Shall we consider this a "friendly amendment"?

Is Odysseus Even a Good Leader?

Let's be real. Odysseus sucks at having common sense. He constantly leads his men to dangerous places instead of just going home to his wife and kid. He is basically the reason they all die even if it is not his fault directly. If they had just gone home straight back to Ithaca after finishing their battle at Troy, then maybe they would have had at least one ship full of people. He really didn't have to go through the entirety of the Odyssey just to get home in the first place, he just chose to do so in the first place and then was stuck going through the rest of the journey. Should we really trust him to be the ruler of a kingdom? How did he even get to be a warrior commander?

The Strength of Athena

In the Odyssey, we see a lot of Athena. Athena is as we know the goddess of wisdom, purposeful battle, and the womanly arts. She is also the daughter of Zeus and intertwined with Odysseus. When Odysseus is trapped, Athena is the one whom is most upset. She is a strong and powerful goddess and tries to help. She takes special interest in helping Odysseus when he is trapped by Poseidon's Cyclops. Also, she puts herself on the line for Telemachus. She does not take the lead in fighting but she fights alongside both Odysseus and Telemachus. She teaches Odysseus the meaning of being a hero. Athena is responsible for teachings of lessons needed to create the Odyssey’s plot. With taking Athena’s strength into account, here are a few questions:

1. Should we see more of Athena? 
2. Should Athena be discussed more because of the power she has on the Odyssey? 
3. Should there be more discussion on how Athena and Odysseus work together and create the plot of the odyssey?

Achilles versus Hector: Who Really Wins?

Whenever you read and/or analyze The Iliad, one of the biggest and most prevalent points to talk about is the relationship formed between Achilles and Hector.  Though most would argue that Achilles is our hero and protagonist, I am here to ask the question: is he really?

When you look at these two characters, you will find that they have a lot more in common that what one would initially think.  They are both leaders, strong willed, and want to lead their armies to success. Though their differences are far more evident, they ultimately want the same things.  So what makes one a hero over the other?

Hector is far more mature than Achilles, and leads his men with a sharp mind.  He is courageous and has a lot at stake. He is not only fighting for his kingdom, but for his family and companions as well.  He seems to keep everyone in mind, and is far from egotistical.

Achilles, on the other hand, is a true man of war.  He has a lot of skills and really takes pleasure in watching his enemies suffer/die.  In addition to this, he gets away with a lot more with the gods. While the gods help out on both sides, it is obvious which “person” they favor.  Achilles only seems to car about himself, and his power truly does go to his head.

Ultimately, I find these characters to be fascinating, and I do think that Hector is more of a hero than Achilles.  These are just my surface-level thoughts regarding this issue, but I want to know what you guys think of this.

Here are my questions:

1.) Do you agree or disagree with my opinion?  Who would you deem as being the “hero” of the story?

2.) Is being a hero more based on strength and courage or wit and intellect?

3.) How do you think the gods influenced the path the story took?  Would there have been a different outcome if they had not been directly involved?