Let's be real. Odysseus sucks at having common sense. He constantly leads his men to dangerous places instead of just going home to his wife and kid. He is basically the reason they all die even if it is not his fault directly. If they had just gone home straight back to Ithaca after finishing their battle at Troy, then maybe they would have had at least one ship full of people. He really didn't have to go through the entirety of the Odyssey just to get home in the first place, he just chose to do so in the first place and then was stuck going through the rest of the journey. Should we really trust him to be the ruler of a kingdom? How did he even get to be a warrior commander?
Even though I would most prefer Odysseus as a leader than that rotten Achilles, I can see where your frustration lies. If Odysseus haven't gone to the Cyclops, Circes, being held at Calypso's island, facing Scylla, or even going to Hades, the Odyssey, itself would be like only ten books instead of 24. Yes, Odysseus' overbearing curiosity can get annoying and repetitive every time he and his men stop at an island, but to be honest, it IS his fault that all his men are dead.
ReplyDeleteHe was a good ruler in Ithaca before the Trojan war, but on the journey home, his adventurous side got the better of his crew, leaving him all alone. Odysseus' epithets always refer to him as "wise" but his "wise-ness" SURE did help by having his men killed ONE by One.
War changes you and his curiosity could be a manifestation of those psychological changes. He wants to see the rest of the world on the way home so that possibly he can learn from others and employ that information in the future to avoid war or any disagreements between kingdoms. I would much rather have him as a unit commander and king than Achilles. We have come to the point of, which is the lesser of the two evils.
ReplyDeleteI think that overall Odysseus is a pretty good person and probably a decent leader and king. There are plenty of times that suggest he does have the respect and obedience of his men, however there are also times they turn against him or show distrust and it’s true that it can’t be ignored he holds a lot of responsibility for their deaths. He repeatedly chose not to give them important details about why they should or shouldn’t do what they were doing. Sure, he protects them from the sirens by having them stuff their ears, but he doesn’t tell them about Scylla or exactly what will happen if they eat the sacred cattle. If he had, they maybe would’ve been able to resist temptation more easily. But instead he gets his men into dangerous situations because his curiosity/pride wins him over, and then never has a plan for when things inevitably go wrong, thus he ends up with no survivors in the end. Perhaps if he had had someone to check his not so great decisions/thought processes, things would’ve gone more smoothly.
ReplyDeleteOdysseus is quite frequently referred to as wise and cunning (his epithet!). He likely has a fortifiable capacity for ruling a kingdom practically and efficiently, especially with Penelope by his side -- she is likewise a strategic thinker and seems to have his full respect and confidence. Therefore, I would not be surprised if she gave him counsel in running the kingdom. This may be an advantage since, as a woman in this time period, she likely had less of an attraction to spoils and other distractions, since women had an exceedingly small compass of authority that would not have accommodated such desires. Therefore, she perhaps could offer some more level-headed advice to Odysseus, refining his focus against the temptation of enticing yet impractical endeavors (when she's around, that is).
ReplyDeleteI think what propelled Odysseus to such a high position in the army must pertain to his bravery, his smarts, and just his natural ability to lead. Odysseus clearly has much courage, as he does not shy from the daunting tasks placed before him. After Eurylochus returns to tell Odysseus that Circe has turned his men to hogs, Odysseus goes after them immediately. Despite Eurylochus's considerable fear and stress, Odysseus hardly hesitates and even takes the journey to retrieve them without any other men to back him up (238). This most certainly takes guts, to retrace a path from which a seasoned warrior returned a complete wreck. Odysseus's intelligence is also a key factor because this is what allows him to navigate out of the situations he gets himself into (with just a few men lost along the way, oops). For example, Odysseus's foresight is highly impressive when he tells the Cyclops that his name is No-One. Long before he had his plan in the works, Odysseus had this idea mapped out so that when he did strike, the Cyclops would not be able to receive aid after telling his peers that "no one" was hurting him (228). Odysseus is clever and seems to be able to think several steps ahead, an incredible help in war. Lastly, Odysseus is simply an adept leader, and people listen to him. After reaching the isle of Circe, Odysseus hatches the plan for his men to split into two groups to explore the area. Though weeping in fear, the men go anyway, simply because it was by Odysseus's orders that they were instructed to (237). He clearly is able to muster considerable respect from others if he is able to convince them to continue to pursue indistinct, potentially dangerous paths even after severe failures in the recent past.
You marshal some pretty persuasive textual evidence here, Kate!
DeleteI like how you said that Odysseus chose to not return in the first place and then he was stuck going through the rest of the journey. Yes, I think that is true. He makes a mistake (actually several), and then he has to work through the consequences. The gods don't make it very easy for him either. This is one of the reasons that Odysseus is such a good protagonist. He makes mistakes, but he fights to return home in the end. We want full-fledged endurance from our protagonist, with no mistakes, but it makes him human and we can understand when he fails. Overall, he has his head on straight and wants what is best for his family and the men he is with.
ReplyDeleteHe also shows a lot of emotion when it comes to leading his men. He doesn't pretend that their deaths don't matter. Instead, he actively mourns with the others and shows that he cares. I think this says a lot for who he is as a leader. We are more likely to stand behind him as our protagonist if we see that he is (at least) trying to return and do what is best.
You are certainly right in this, Alice: that Odysseus is a remarkably complex character—far more so than his largely comic-book portrayals in latter-day treatments of his story.
DeleteI agree for the most part. Poseidon only started to keep Odysseus from home after he fought Polyphemus - halfway into his journey. Also, in addition to stopping at every island he passes and going out if his way to do so, he stays at various islands for insane amounts of time. He stays with Circe for a year for no reason. Odysseus could have charmed her and left within a day. He might have even saved the young crewman who fell off the roof because there wouldn't have been as intense of a drunken revelry.
ReplyDeleteIf you would be talking about Achilles here, I would be inclined to agree with you. In my post, I even talked about Hector being a “hero” over him. However, I do not think Odysseus should be in that same boat. Though he is very adventurous, I would not say that he totally lacks common sense. I actually think that this trait is quite admirable in him, as it shows us that he is courageous and willing to risk his life for the sake of discovering the truth. In my opinion, he wanted to travel to all of these different places to gain perspective; not because he was thinking incompetently.
ReplyDeleteI agree too that Odysseus is not a great leader. I believe that he should be a more solo hero. I'm sure that he was so good in battle that they had no choice but to name him a commander.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you I was frustrated with Odysseus too. He has a wife and child at home yet he is cheating on his wife, and not even worried about getting home. I also agree with you when you talk about him not going straight home. It does not even make sense to me that he didn't go straight home. In my opinion Odysseus annoyed me to no end.
ReplyDeleteOdysseus may be blinded by some need to know everything, but none the less is worthy in my opinion of being a commander. He is very cunning is some senses, although, his sense for seeing how things might turn out, for the worse is not the greatest. Odysseus like every man has a flaw
ReplyDeleteThis was a really good question, Aleks.
ReplyDeleteI totally agree. He literally took his boats, and all his men just about everywhere besides home. Its like he has the attention span of a goldfish. He obviously was a great warrior physically because he could do many things that other men couldn't, but as a leader he was very poor with decision making, and had poor basic leacdership skills.
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