Does anyone else here happen to listen to the Decemberists? For those who don’t, they’re known for making a lot of music with historical and folklore references. So of course, naturally they have a 5 part, 20+ minute long song entitled....The Tain! The music video is a simple stop motion recreation of the major events that unfolded throughout the epic. I’ll include the link here for anyone who is interested: https://youtu.be/
I found the imagery to be quite helpful in understanding the overall story, and I noticed in the comments that some students even had to watch this for assignments in their own classes that were studying The Tain. (This is good because now I can be sure it’s valid and relevant to share..)
Anyway, this brings me to the topics of discussion that I want to set up: First, use of imagery is an important way to better understand literature. This is probably part of why we must include it as an aid to our posts. I thought about this as we’ve read this story, because on its pages we can see a number of very basic brush stroke illustrations of figures that accompany the text. They appear ancient, although they are not, but were purposefully done this way as a less is more approach. Did you find them effective or ineffective aids which contributed to your ability to picture the events? Would you have preferred more detailed illustrations or do you agree with the translator and illustrator that it would have taken away from it and not allowed enough room for imagination?
Second: Like the Inanna Cycle, The Ulster Cycle is another case of several fragments of ancient text that a translator had to work incredibly hard to make into a cohesive and coherent piece of literature. So my final question is, although of course it’s wonderful that we have these translations, we must also accept that there is a great deal lost with each one. Do you ever think about how many of the pieces of the puzzle we’re missing when reading works like this? Whether in regard to certain language itself and it’s inability to be directly translated, fragments of the events that weren’t found or had to be filled in with each translator’s personal discretion, or even what changes when an epic goes from oral to written: is what we gain worth what must be given up when something is modernized? At what point does it just become a new story? In what ways do you think The Tain in particular differed when it first came about compared to now?
Personally, I feel that the illustrations were a bit lacking. If a person were shown these illustrations without context, they would most likely label them as ink stains, and I see that as an issue. However, I do realize that this may have been the whole point. By making an illustration to detailed, you take away the element of imagination from the reader and create a concrete image to associate with the story. As shown, illustrations can be difficult to produce, but there are stories that have perfected the art of illustrations (A Monster Calls).
ReplyDeleteAs for your other question, I feel the sacrifice is a necessary one if the keepers of that knowledge wish for it to carry on into the modern age. The medium for story-telling will always change and so must the stories; not in content, but in method of retelling. The loss of knowledge is inevitable (especially when translating from an oral tradition to a written one) but it isn't something that should be feared. A great story isn't the specifics that come along with it, it is the concepts, events, and struggles that the main characters deal with. It is for this reason that I feel authors should be willing to put aside their desire for "original authenticity" and instead focus on maintaining their stories for future generations.
I agree that they were lacking, and that a number of them were hard to even discern as images at all. The one benefit that I do think they offer is a sort of “mood” or feeling to be associated with the story. Like I said, although they are not, they APPEAR ancient and that contributes to a certain feeling they give me as a reader. I think that more modernized illustrations would not have been able to accomplish that.
DeleteThat is a good point made about the specifics of stories not always being that important as well, but rather the main ideas, characters and conflict that takes place. Though I do also understand the wish to translate a story as closely to the original as possible. If I were a translator, I definitely would feel a lot of pressure to not leave out something vital, however nuanced. I also agree with you that it's a necessary sacrifice-something is always better than nothing!
Although I can see why some readers may not like that the illustrations lacked any detail, I do favor drawings or paintings like that. I think it leaves the viewer to use their imagination. We, the readers, can interpret or attempt to uncover what the picture represents or shows us. I do see that without the details in the pictures though, we are unable to see historical connections that we could do with a detailed illustration. For example, the type of clothes they are wearing or the weapons used. Details like those give readers context to time period, religion, or ethnicity of the people in the stories.
ReplyDeleteI also would like to add that it is a little upsetting to think of all the parts of The Tain and really any other ancient story that are no longer apart of the pieces just due to time. They may have been lost or we couldn't translate them, either way, I'm glad we got what we have at least.
I agree that there are certain details that would be better to have clearer imagery and description in order to better understand the people of the time! Being able to make those connections can be very important to understanding the bigger picture.
DeleteBecause we have already read/discussed the story, I found it to be helpful. I agree with Pierre, though, that if shown this out of context, it may be a bit vexing. I personally am more of an abstract-type thinker, so I found this to be very intriguing, though it may not be everyone's cup of tea.
ReplyDeleteSecond, I find it hard not to think about all the missing pieces of the puzzle. I am appreciative of what we have, but I do wish that we had those pieces. Who doesn't? It doesn't ruin the experience for me, but it does make you think. No use in letting in drive you crazy, though.
Right, obviously there's nothing we can do about the fact that some pieces will always inevitably be lost. Although it's pretty interesting to really sit and think about just how different both the original "real" version and modernly translated versions of any given story are!
DeleteThe first part about the video and the song I thought was really unique to include. I agree with the visuals, i personally agree with that visuals help me learn better. When I look at something it makes it easier for me to understand what is going on in a story.
ReplyDeleteI am really glad you brought up that we are reading translations. Sometimes in class when we are discussing it or reading it I totally think about how much of it was lost or could not be translated. I also wonder if they sometimes they got the translations wrong. Like what if this whole time we were reading the wrong story, or what were were reading was wrong.
I think about the same thing! Especially during the moments where it's even noted in our book that there were certain parts that editors and translators were unsure about and either had to make a best guess or omit entirely with ellipses.
DeleteJust skipping quickly through the video, the imagery of it is actually quite beautiful! The stop-motion adds a drama to it that's really interesting, and I like how different colored backdrops are swapped out for different scenes. There's definitely a lot of thought that went into orchestrating this piece.
ReplyDeleteI thought the images used in the text were entirely fitting. They are simple and understated, yet nod to very strong, succinct emotion. In particular, I was flipping through Book IX (which I think we may have only read part of?? can't remember for certain), and the illustration on page 150 is striking. It really shows the complete evisceration that violence takes the form of in this text, as well as most of the others we've been looking at. When you first see the image, it looks like a confused mass. However, when you look more deliberately, you can make out individual body parts flying apart from each other, with specks of blood spurted outward. I think the simplicity, ironically, allows for greater depth. When you see a complex visual, I think you tend to take it for granted, to appreciate the holistic view of it and then not think much beyond that. When it's really dumbed down, it makes you work harder to figure out what idea it's trying to get at because it's not readily apparent. Therefore, much more analytical thinking is evoked.
That's a super interesting point about the modernization of translations. That's one of the major downsides of texts being lost with time. I think the best option would be to simply leave the texts as they are found. Preserving the authenticity of a work is important to preserving our ability to understand the culture in which it was begotten. Whenever translators add in their own interpretations, they add in their own cultural contexts and viewpoints as well. Of course, there's no way to completely avoid translator bias. Translating is likely a rather subjective pursuit; the way a translator composes the text will depend on how they interpret the original transcript. Therefore, there is no perfect way for it to be done, unfortunately.
It's hard to say how the original Tain would compare to the version we have been studying. I think you would have to have a really good grasp of the culture in which it was forged in order to accurately assess that, but the way to learn about that culture is through written texts, which again brings up the translating issue. Therefore, there's no perfect way to assess the original culture and therefore no real way of determining what the authentic manuscript would have entailed.
The bridge from oral to written is also tricky. I think you would lose a lot of the magic of the story simply by lack of the verbal storytelling. Hearing a story is different from reading it. There are perks to each, but I think the verbal telling is more dynamic and imaginative a lot of the time.
Thank you for such a long and well thought out response! I'm really glad you appreciated the video as well and picked up on the feeling that it invokes.
DeleteThat is a really good point about the simplicity of the images in our reading allowing for greater depth- I totally get what you mean by that. They definitely are more than what meets the eye at an initial glance.
I agree that translating is subjective- this is why there always ends up being multiple translations of works, as we've even already seen some differences between the version of Song of Roland that Dr. Luthin is reading from vs the one in our textbook. I also can only imagine the differences that occur when these ancient stories are translated into modern English compared to the modern French, Spanish, German versions, etcetera.
It's a shame we'll never know everything there is to know about what exact details of these stories we're missing out on, but it is still great that we at least have as much information and understanding as we do.
Really nice discourse on the illustrations, Kate. Louis le Brocquy was one of Ireland's most famous artists.
DeleteNice seedpost! Personally, I did not find the images inhibiting or overly helpful. I actually ignored them (accidentally) as I was reading the text. Only when Dr. Luthin pointed out that they were real drawings did I take notice. But now that you brought it up, I am glad that the drawings aren't very clear. I normally am of the opinion that it is more fun to allow the text to direct your imagination. However, in this case, especially because the text was translated, the original artwork - although unclear - might give us a more accurate look into the culture and context of The Tain.
ReplyDeleteTranslations are difficult. I often think that I am missing something: a cultural norm, historical event, or lost portion of text that will completely change how I view the work. Especially when I analyze the texts. I so desire to write what I think (something that logically makes sense to me and that I care about) in a paper. But what if what I think is utterly off-target simply because we are missing a portion of text or do not understand the culture well enough? I suppose it spurs us on to research, but our limited knowledge of these things makes me wonder just how unqualified I am to analyze something like The Iliad.
The feeling that I'm missing something or not fully understanding what we're reading well enough to analyze it is something that I go through all the time as well! And there's only so much research you can do with a limited amount of time. This is why I find the in class discussions really helpful, and usually every day there is at least one thing that gets cleared up or that I better understand after listening to the rest of the class's thoughts. But I definitely share your struggle of wanting to write about personal interpretations but fearing that they're totally missing the mark!
DeleteI really like this post. I took the time watch the entire video and I have to agree with you that it really helps understand the story. As for the idea of imagery aiding in the understanding of literature, I couldn't agree more. As someone who loves the analysis of literature as whole, I find myself doing research about almost everything I read. Whether it be the author's background, the historical context of the time period, or the entire literary movement that the story in question, I find it is always interesting to have some sort of visual comparison to what I am reading. So, I really like the ideas you put forth here. I can agree with all of them.
ReplyDeleteI really appreciate that you watched the whole video! I didn't expect anyone to, and I'm glad that you found it helpful. Thanks a lot for your input :) Literary analysis isn't generally a favorite topic of mine, but I still totally agree that the history and context behind a work can be fascinating!
DeleteExcellent post, Raquel. And The Decemberists is hands-down one of my favorite bands, and Colin Meloy is one of the great songwriters. I've managed to see them live three times, and they always knock the show out of the park...
ReplyDeleteThat's so cool! They are definitely great!
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